H&C will be the 7 seed. The reason for 6 & 7 is to allow the top 4 seeds from B to get their deserved first round byes. And at 6 & 7 they can’t possibly face eachother in finals, guaranteeing that at least one original B team goes to the finals.
How to work out the seeding and keep everyone happy for the tournament is very tricky.
Where should the A teams that dropped down fall in the seeding? Should you bump some B leagues first round bye to place an A team? If two A teams play each other in the B bracket Final, is that OK? If you have to bump someone up to A league, should it have been Huck & Chuck or Retro (who was adamant they didn’t want to play in A)? Should there be three leagues? Two leagues with crossover games? And if you allow crossover games do you weight the standings for those with an easier schedule? Some teams only want to play teams that are close to their level. Some teams are really bitter when B bracketed and would rather lose badly to the best teams (Funny history note, Andy Bandit started running Winter League so Marshall would never be B-Bracketed again. In retrospect, seeing what Andy has done for LA ultimate, B-Bracketing Marshall in 03 might have been the best call ever)
While we all certainly have opinions on how Winter League should be run, don’t forget how many unpaid hours our volunteers put into running these leagues. And how much it stings after trying to accommodate everyone as best one can to be reminded (be that in the comments or via email) that people are still unhappy. I’m not claiming that anyone’s criticism here is unduly harsh. I just think in an all volunteer organization it’s incredibly important to think about how many hours you’ve spent working for this league/LA ultimate before one critiques.
Seth, I think most people really do appreciate the amount of hours and headaches that our leaders have to endure. That doesn’t mean that frustrations can’t be expressed. If something is not working should nothing ever be said? I for one have never heard a good reason why we can’t have a 3 division league again like we did in 2010. Maybe my ears did not want to hear why it was a horrible idea. What about the years where the teams were all spread out over two divisions and it wasn’t just “elite” and “regular.” Why did we change from that again? I think it’s time to discuss the divisions question again and have all team captains involved in the conversation.
Btw, who are the teams that are bitter about playing in B? Seems like anyone who wants to play in A always gets to. I really feel for H&C this year. No one should ever be forced to play where they don’t want to play. Think about the teams that have disbanded over the years (Pist, Jarnspikar, Homer’s Disc, Milquetoast, Awesome Express). Most of them did so after losing most if not every single game in A division. No one likes to see that happen, right? The fact remains that the teams on the bottom of A are constantly unhappy year after year. We show up, we play hard, we try to put our best face forward but after a while if it ain’t fun, it ain’t fun. With all due appreciation and sincere gratitude to Andy and everyone who volunteers, something needs to change.
Sounds like it’s time for a LAOUT open forum. Woo hoo!!!! I admit I’ve been reluctant to do one since the last time I held an open forum only 2 people showed up. (More cheese puffs for me!) But maybe this is a hot enough topic to get the people out for. And then we can discuss whatever else people want to bring up. I’ll look into possible dates for a forum. I can host. Or if someone more centrally located wants to host, I’m coolio with that too.
And one question I have. If a team gets to choose to play in B, then dominates B, and chooses to stay in B again the following year, and dominates again, and all the other B teams complain to you regularly that this sucks and it’s unfair. What would you do as a TD? Is it fair to have a B Dynasty rule? Like, if you win B, you have to move up to A. Or maybe two years in a row, is that more reasonable? I’m just curious. Something to think about.
To Peebs and all other former winter league commissioners, I really do appreciate everything you do. Without you, there would be no winter league. Having captained a winter league team before, I know how much the commissioner had to deal with issues regarding my team, multiply that by 19 other teams, that’s a lot of shit to deal with.
I agree with all of the praise for the hard work done behind and in front of the scenes to make the leagues run. You guys kick ass, and without you this league would not be where it is today. With that said…why shouldn’t both A teams have a shot at making it to the finals? If we are saying that it is fair to move them down to the B league bracket, why shouldn’t they both have an opportunity to advance? Why weigh down one side of the bracket? I’m just saying that if they have been accepted and voted in as B league competition, then it’s only fair to give them equal opportunity to win the tournament they have been cast into. If we are putting them on the same side of the bracket to “knock eachother out,” then I think we are saying it is unfair to have them in here to begin with and that they are not equal competition to the league they have been placed. Split them between the brackets, and lets see what happens, I like to party!
I think it should be said that winning all your games is not the same as dominating. As an example, all the teams Retro played this season came out and worked it on the field – we did not easily roll over anyone and I don’t think any opposing teams felt like we were beating up on them or that it wasn’t fun to play us.
On the other hand, teams that get pushed up into A when they really belong in B do get beaten up on and it just ain’t fun to go out on a cold dark night knowing that chances are you’re not even going to touch the disk, let alone catch a point or throw one.
Conversely, I don’t think a true A team would have fun playing B league – winning isn’t fun if you don’t have to work for it – so I think Andy’s theoretical above is not very likely to come to pass.
I think that if you clearly “dominate”, or go undefeated for 2 seasons, you should get an automatic bump. That is, unless, you can show that your roster is going to be significantly different, losing your best players, etc. I, for one, was unhappy with the 3 division format (snowmen). True, we did lose our first game, but then crushed everyone, including getting redemption in the finals winning like 15-4 or something like that. True again, as Andy will point out, we did lose to the last place team in B at the tournament, but half of our team had already gone home, and the other half played while holding beers, so i dont really thing that counts. I think an easy solution, rather than having 3 divisions, is just having unequal numbers of teams. For example, this year, if tarmac and H&C were in B, and B had 12 teams and A had 8. I dont see the problem with that (other than figuring out the schedule!). There certainly would have been a battle at the top of B. If in 2011 awesome express and slow children were in B, it would have given more competition to the snowmen, who crushed pretty much everyone except for a close game against H&C in the regular season, before beating them again 15-5 in the finals. Ill just end with saying i do appreciate all the work the TD’s and volunteers do! And im just happy to go play, regardless of the format!
Thanks for that link Andy! Before writing my comment above I searched far and wide for it to no avail. When you posted it I was so excited to read it again. Then I scrolled through all the comments and remembered why I erased all that from my memory (holy shitty headache!). Bring on the cheese puffs (ewwww!).
It was hard for me to answer the Dynasty question because implied is that a very good B team should automatically want to play in A. Why is that an automatic assumption? Should a dominating team in A be forced out of our league so they can join the Pro-Am or Way-Pro Circuit? I point to my article on reasons for playing in LAOUT other than winning:
This “spirit” thing is not some vague hippy add-on, it’s right there in the rules[I.B] (as written by the hippy lawyers). Neither is “dangerous play” some wishy washy you’re-to-rough-what’s-my-safe-word bogus call — it is a top level rule[XVI.H.4], not to be superseded by any other. Etiquette[XIX.G] and Spirit[I.B] imply that any fouls or violations are accidental and without malice.
If you’re seeing recurring, habitual, purposeful violations of the rules or you fear for your safety every time the disc is in the air, I don’t know what you’re playing but it isn’t Ultimate — maybe it’s basketball or soccer where playing-the-ref is encouraged. So get out there and play some hard, fun, spirited ultimate. Keep each other safe and sound!
We can all improve. I’m working on keeping XIX.G in mind. that no one out there is doing anything illegal on purpose — I made it through the first 6 halves of ultimate on Sunday without having to call anything nor making any violations myself, that was pretty awesome and fun. Then our first point of finals had roughly one million calls . Always room to improve.
I.B Spirit of the Game: Ultimate relies upon a spirit of sportsmanship that places the responsibility for fair play on the player. Highly competitive play is encouraged, but never at the expense of mutual respect among competitors, adherence to the agreed upon rules, or the basic joy of play. Protection of these vital elements serves to eliminate unsportsmanlike conduct from the Ultimate field. Such actions as taunting opposing players, dangerous aggression, belligerent intimidation, intentional infractions, or other win-at-all-costs behavior are contrary to the spirit of the game and must be avoided by all players.
XVI. Violations and Fouls
H.1: Fouls (II.E): It is the responsibility of all players to avoid contact in every way possible .
H.4: Reckless disregard for the safety of fellow players or other dangerously aggressive behavior (such as significantly colliding into a stationary opponent), regardless of whether or when the disc arrives or when contact occurs is considered dangerous play and is treated as a foul. This rule is not superseded by any other rule.
G. In addition to the assumption that players will not intentionally violate the rules, players are similarly expected to make every effort to avoid violating them.